smart, witty and she often assassinates world leaders.

[gfrancie]

I had a conversation about second-wave feminism, and how I don't relate to these women. Their lives, and complaints are so foreign to my existance and context.
It always seemed like some of these women, were insulting their own gender, by trying to be more like men, in their approach. It was as if they were saying, their own gender wasn't good enough so they had to be like the other.
None of the women in my family, were at the mercy of their husbands, most of them worked outside of the home, (long before the advent of NOW)they were equals with their husbands. Even my fathers side of the family, which were very traditional Italians, Mexicans and Germans. All of the women did what they wanted to do. Yet none of them sacrificed their so-called girlish ways.

I summed up my feelings by saying, "I would rather be Gloria Swanson then Gloria Steinem.

I don't feel that I should give up high heels, flirting, and a girl appearance to be taken seriously.
hrmph.

Comments

[marzipan-pig.livejournal.com]

second wave feminism is more than the media appearance of it
though, then and now; just as flirting, heels, and looking
traditionally 'female
' shouldn't mean not being taken seriously (then or
now), choosing NOT to do those things shouldn't mean not
being though of as female, you know?

have you read any germaine greer, or even some of how erica jong talked? or you know who, joanna russ
has some nice stuff, 70's feminism can yeah be coming
from a context that seems kinda lame now (though believe me, leaving
college suddenly made it all seems more relevant, most women leaving college have kind of a perceived status drop when suddenly they're just 'normal' women and people aren't as interested in what they have to say) or lame
for those ofus from more female-dominated families, but it's not all
about what it was like at home.

[blah blah interesting conversations with my own fairly forceful mother about sexual harassment at work in the 50's/60's,
what dating was like, dealing with the pill when it was new, her
basically saying she wouldn't have gotten married
and had kids if she had felt like she could have been
a designer/artist without being vulnerable to dealing
with icky guys in the then-existing art world]

I don't mean to go off on you, just that I think sometimes 'third wave' feminists forget that what we want might not
be so different from what other women have wanted, that
more might have been going on than what we see when he try to look back now. [and to be fair
my dad told me he had a great aunt who marched AGAINST women's
sufferage, "We DON"T WANT THE VOTE!!"; he knew I would
think it was funny)

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

I didn't feel you were going off on me.
I think you made some very good points.
I read Germaine Greer and the like, and I liked a number of their points.

I think, what I didn't relate to was Betty Freidan.

[marzipan-pig.livejournal.com]

I think some people's personalities just get on my nerves; kate millet
always seemed like an interesting person
but she also seemed a little crazy, even when I was reading
her stuff about psychiatric abuse (maybe especially then).

I think the whole "liking sex doesn't make me your whore" thing is an
important part of any feminism to me but I can see how
my prioroties might vchange over my life and that other women might
have totally differnt ones.

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

I think you hit it right on the nose!

[homc.livejournal.com]

I have never really supported being more like a "man." I love being able to wear skirts, heels, make-up and bras! I love for my bra to match my underwear. I will admit to being vain. I rub creams and potions on my face and skin. I don't want to just let everything go to hell. I do all these things because I want to.

I do support some feminist views though. I have worked at places (like almost any joint in the South) where males do make more than woman- and they are doing the same job. I think it would be nice to make the same as my cohort, ecpecially if we are doing the same work- no matter if they female, male, black, white or green. (It is such a different world out here on the West coast when it comes to things like this.)

I am still torn on issues like being a fireman. I think women should be firemen if they pass the same exam a man does. I have problems with the idea that women should pass an exam that is easier. If she can pull all those heavy hoses up 10 stories well then good, but if she can only pull them up 6 and she still passes- well I hope I am not in a 10 story building waiting to be rescued.

I also think that many women get a bad rap for wanting to stay home and raise children in today's world. It is not my preference to do this, but if someone else wants to well the more power to her. I think there is so much bickering that goes on between feminists. I guess that is really what turns me off.

All in all, I guess I want my version of Utopia. A place where women can be paid the same amount of money in the workplace. One can stay at home if one wants or one can work one's self to death. One can have children or not have children. One can wear a bra or not wear one. One can get married or stay single forever. One can wear skirts and heels or one can wear pants and no make-up.

see, the way I see it...

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

I personally DON'T like wearing skirts, hate heels, almost never wear make-up or dress up. Thirty-odd years ago, I would have had to. I mean, even today I get judged for doing this.

Re: see, the way I see it...

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

I am entirely cool with ones individual choices, and it is unfortunate you are given crap for it.
Maybe I came from crazy people, but they always did what they wanted, and a good number of the women, would wear pants, not wear makeup if they didn't want to, and just generally held their own.

the only real bitch, that came from a lot of them, was not being able to advance as quickly as the men they worked with. And that still hasn't changed completely. My grandmother worked in an office and if she had been a man, she would have been an executive, but since she wasn't, she couldn't.
My great aunt, owned her own beauty parlor, ran it for years, served ladies and prostitutes and treated everyone equally. I think the hardest lot was carried by my great grandmother, who had been a teacher in the early part of the twentieth century, was very well-read, educated, but, she got married and it ended a lot of that for her. She was one of the few members of the female clan that didn't work much.
It really took its toll upon her and her depression.

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

I feel the same way you do.
a bit conflicted, but I feel a lot of my views aren't entirely represented.

[ekdogg.livejournal.com]

I like the fact that your bra matches your panties too.

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

you are so easy to please

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

You go, Dagny.

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

don't you mean Cagney.

[dogberry.livejournal.com]

not if he means taggart.

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

good point

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

No. Dagny.

Atlas Shurgged.

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

ah yes....
I forgot about ayn rand. I have not read that in a very very long time.
I didn't care for ayn rand.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

Why not?

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

she didn't mesh well with my own ideas.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

Which are?

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

personal.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

...

coffee?

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

I gave up coffee, along with every other fun drug.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

Well then how the hell are we supposed to have a meaningful exchange of ideas and values?

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

some of the best exchanges of ideas in history have been via correspondence.
Besides, I tend to keep most of my opinions to myself, I would rather keep things light and engaging.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

The only reason they were done via correspondence is because, well, that was the only way to effectively communicate.

We have a little thing I like to call "modern day world of technological wonderment."

Are your opinions at least rational and reasoned?

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

no...really? *smirks*

some of my opinions are rational, and reasonable, but many contradict one another, which is fairly common.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

Hmmm.

Why do you contradict yourself?

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

because that is the nature of humans, quite often, to possess many opinions, many of which contradict one another.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

But whenever a contradiction exists, destruction ensues.

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

thus human history. *smiles* lovely isn't it.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

Therefore, the only people who will eventually survive are people who exist without contradiction.

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

not always true.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

why not?

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

there are plenty of humans who contradict themselves often and they manage to survive.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

Not forever. I would argue the ratio of contradictory people to consistent people is slowly tipping in favor of the consistent people.

For proof, look at all the fine programming on the Fox Network.

...

Oh wait.

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

I would argue that television is proof that contradiction thrives quite well.
television and the periodicals newsweek and time.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

Belief in dogmatic religion versus knowledge of science.

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

pardon?

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

I have no idea. I was going somewhere cool with that, but I got distracted.

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

I see

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

We seem to have drifted back to light and engaging.

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

amusing how that works.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

It's cyclical. It's the circle of life.

Did Simba ever get circumcised?

[gfrancie.livejournal.com]

I don't believe he did. they merely baptized him.

Re:

[rfjason.livejournal.com]

I bet the monkey touched him there. Dirty monkey.

Really, that movie should've been about teaching kids to say "no."